Following a claim from someone that said "Jesus was God", I said I would start a new thread claiming Jesus was not God..

I cannot make this claim without giving my reasons, hence the length of this first post..
By saying Jesus is not God, in no way do I wish to diminish the greatness of God to whom all honour and glory is due, neither am I diminishing the supreme achievement of Jesus that has earned him his many titles including those on a par with God..
Chapter 2 of Philippians has to be understood in the context of Jesus as a man.. One of his titles is ‘Son of man’ and by nature, Jesus was a man.. However, because of the achievement of Jesus, God has done the following;
Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There is a distinct Father and Son relationship.. Nowhere does Jesus say; 'I am God.' To say this is putting words into the mouth of Jesus.. When Jesus says; 'I and my Father are one' for example, is not saying Jesus is God.. All this is saying is that Jesus and God are of the same mind; in the same way as we are encouraged to have the mind of Christ in us and in so doing we can be one with the Lord Jesus..

Jesus does have a unique position.. We know that Jesus was taken up into Heaven (God’s dwelling place), where he has been given an immortal body and up to now, no other human being has been given an immortal body or ascended into Heaven. Jesus has pre-eminence over all things except God..
Jesus is alive now in the presence of God.. Jesus is not visibly present on earth in these days. We have the assurance God (his Heavenly Father) will send him back.. Jesus performs a very important role as our high priest and a high priest after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

So Jesus is at work as high priest.. When at the judgment seat of Jesus when judgment has been granted to Jesus, it is Jesus who we have faith in that by his covering for sin can present us faultless before God and invite us into the Kingdom.. At this present time, I regard Jesus as my mediator the same as the Apostle Paul did..
1 Tim 5:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Paul is saying there is one God and one mediator; who are separate.. Note that Paul says; the man Christ Jesus .. Paul did not doubt that Jesus was a man and not God.. Jesus and God are completely separate and unique This is what Paul believed, and I believe Paul to be correct and true.. To doubt Paul’s words is to doubt God and Jesus who used Paul to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles of which I am one of millions..

The future work of Jesus is to set up the Kingdom of God on earth and when this has been done (after 1000 years) when death and sin will be finally abolished, Jesus will hand over the kingdom to his Heavenly Father.. I am only repeating that which I understand from the Apostle Paul when he writes this;
I Cor. 15: 24 Then cometh the end, when he (Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In order for this to happen Jesus will be in full control.. He will have available to him the power (the Holy Spirit) of the Almighty God.. Jesus once more will be God’s representative on earth and the closest we can come to seeing God. That is why Jesus can say;
John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus is not claiming to be God.. If our whole mind is given over to God and Jesus we can likewise say that the spirit of God and Jesus dwells in us and Jesus is not saying any more than this.. Jesus also says this;
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself Jesus would never had been able to perform miracles if God (his Heavenly Father) had not performed the miracles through His Holy Spirit
Without the power of God made available to him, Jesus could do nothing.. That is why Jesus was continually in prayer to his Heavenly Father.. Jesus did not make the same mistake as Moses (when he struck the rock to produce water) and fail to sanctify God..
John 11: 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

When Jesus has finally restored the Kingdom destroying the last enemy which is sin and death, even Jesus will be subject again unto his Heavenly Father; there is no ambiguity about Jesus not being equal with God, Jesus is subject to God; he always was, is, and will be..
Heb 7:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

After the baptism of Jesus; God’s power (Holy Spirit) was made available to Jesus without limit.. Matt 3:16 the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
This was a sign that Jesus might have been the only one to see, but Jesus knew from now on anything Jesus requested God would do for him..
The extent of this power meant that Jesus only had to speak and the Holy Spirit would have acted on his word (appearing as if Jesus was equal to God and could be thought of as God.) This gives extra poignancy to the words 'every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.' If Jesus had spoken idle words and the Holy Spirit acted on them, Jesus would have been held to account as those eligible for judgment will be held to account.. I do not think you can say that any of Jesus’ words are idle words.. Look how surprised the disciples were when Jesus cursed the fig tree for not having fruit.. In the same day, the fig tree withered and was dead..

Comparing the power available to Jesus is like the genie in the bottle story, except that Jesus was not limited to two or three wishes, but every request in word spoken was acted on by the Holy Spirit.. Nothing would have been withheld from Jesus had he requested it.. This must make us think about the tremendous temptation that Jesus had to overcome knowing that God would not withhold anything from him.. This explains the struggle that went on in Jesus’ mind in the Wilderness.. The devil (personified) was no more than his human nature (disposed to sin) and the thoughts within his own mind, which if he had yielded to would have caused him to sin and would have gone against the will of God.. Jesus was a man who had to overcome self-will and not yield to fleshly desires in order to do fully the will of God..
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

At all times there is this relationship of God and the Son of God (Son of man); the two are never One; as God is ONE..
I know of no references in the Old Testament (before the birth of Jesus) that says Jesus was alive with God.. There are many messianic prophecies relating to the first coming of Jesus (his birth) and events in his life and also of the his second coming (still future)..
It is impossible for us to comprehend infinity, we cannot comprehend God has no beginning or end.. As far back as you can go in time (infinity), God existed.. In the very beginning, the earth and the universe that we know of would not have existed.. At some very distant point in the past, God spoke. Before God spoke was Creation formulating in the mind of God? I know I am reasoning as a man who thinks and plans and then performs.. There must have been a time before God spoke and announced He would create man in His own image? There must have been a starting point however far back.. Before the thought of creating man came into the mind of God, how could Jesus have existed if man had not even been thought of?

The moment God thought to create man in His own image; God had to provide the environment for man to live.. God took a void planet amongst the billions of stars and planets that were probably already made (who knows exactly when).. Out of a chaotic planet (without form), God created the conditions for all life of which man would be the pinnacle.. It was already in God’s mind before He created Adam and Eve that He would put them to a test (God gave them choice).. Even God had choice.. God could have easily decided not to create man in His own image.. My reasoning is that before God created man, Jesus could not have existed.. God knew Adam and Eve would fail the test, so even before God created the first man and woman, God was planning a way of redemption and hence then is what we read in Genesis..
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
This is the first messianic prophecy the understanding of which is more clear when you realize what this prophecy means and the way it was accomplished in Jesus..

The creation of the perfect man (in the image of God) must have been in the mind of God from some point in time.. Being in the mind of God is not the same as existing with God.. God had to provide a way for man to be redeemed and it was in God’s plan that he would eventually accept a perfect one-off sacrifice.. The ultimate perfect sacrifice was that of a perfect man, and it was Jesus who filled that role..
God gave lots of prophecies concerning the coming of His Son.. Jesus would be born of a virgin.. God fertilized the egg in Mary’s womb to make her conceive and give birth to a boy (God’s Son).. This was the Genesis of Jesus (the coming into existence).. Before his birth, Jesus did not exist.. Understanding this, dispels the false beliefs concerning pre-existence and the like..
We are told Jesus grew in wisdom and stature.. He was a normal boy growing up in loving family who knew that Jesus was a very special boy.. Jesus would have learnt that he was special from Mary and Joseph and so at a very early age Jesus knew (as he said); 'I must be about my Father’s business'.. Jesus was special, but in nature was no different to any other man.. That is why it is said of Jesus; 'he was tempted in all points like as we are.' The important difference is that Jesus did not sin.. Not once did Jesus disobey his Heavenly Father (God) and do his own will.. This is unique and no other man or woman has been able to achieve this.. This would not have come about unless Jesus was guided from a very early age as to what he had to do..

There was never a time when Jesus was not subject to the same temptations as we are.. God tells us that He (God) cannot be tempted with evil and therefore the nature of Jesus was not that of God.. While the above all seems straightforward to me, I struggle to see how Jesus could exist before he was born and what would have become of the Jesus that existed before he was born.. I find this extremely difficult to comprehend, more so than trying to comprehend infinity..

There is a simple truth confounded by non-scriptural teaching of men.. Simply, Jesus was born like any other man.. Only his conception was uniquely brought about.. Jesus lived a perfect life under the guidance of his Heavenly Father.. Jesus was continually in prayer to his Heavenly Father.. Having achieved a perfect life through obedience to God’s Will, Jesus has rightly earned a name above all other names and has been given an immortal body after the resurrection after lying dead in tomb for 3 days.. Jesus after resurrection was transformed from his old corruptible body to an incorruptible body..
The fact that Jesus has been raised from the dead and given an immortal body is no different to the same nature that will be given to those who believe and are faithful..
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The title; ‘only begotten Son’ distinguishes Jesus as the only Son of God to be born of a virgin and also later given in sacrifice.. Just as Jesus was a son of God, that same title can be given to you and me, so long as we do the will of God to the extent that God sees us as his children.. Consider what John writes.
1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he (Jesus) shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he (Jesus) is pure.

When Jesus was raised from the dead, he was raised in his mortal body.. Jesus had been in the grave 3 days and he had not yet ascended to his Heavenly Father where he was given a new spiritual body that is incorruptible.. That is why immediately after his resurrection he told Mary Magdalene not to touch him.. After he ascended to Heaven and was given an incorruptible body, Jesus came back to earth for another 40 days.. The resurrection and transformation of Jesus is likened to firstfruits signifying the harvest to follow.. 'We shall be like him' is saying the same thing as that spoken of by the Apostle Paul;
1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Men and women are going to be raised to eternal life and given the same spiritual body that Jesus now has.. Does this make these people equal with God? This can never be! Chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians is a very important chapter to understand as is also Romans chapter 6.. That which follows in verse 24 I have already quoted at the beginning of this post.. Here we see that Jesus once again becomes subject to his Heavenly Father after handing back the kingdom.. We can have the hope of sharing in the Kingdom together with the Lord Jesus and having the same nature as him.. Jesus will never lose the title he has earned and been given and will always be the only begotten Son of God..

If you are still of the mind that Jesus is God, I can appreciate that changing your understanding will be difficult.. I do not follow the blind teaching of others supposing they are telling me the truth.. There is a lot of misunderstanding of God’s Word and He has warned us of this to put us on our guard.. This is the reason we are instructed to work out our own salvation and 'search the scriptures to see if these things are so.' We have to respect God as the omnipotent and omnipresent God of which there is none else.. God declares this on many occasions.. There is no triune God;. There is no such thing as the Trinity;. You will not find mention of a trinity in the Bible.. God is ONE, there is none beside God.. I have to accept what God says and therefore understand other parts of the Bible knowing this truth and therefore have to see other verses in the correct context..

I expect the opening words of the Gospel of John to be quoted against my view and to support the belief in the existence of Jesus as the ‘Word’ that was with God at the beginning..
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, What follows does not have to mean that Jesus pre-existed.. and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jesus can be seen to be at the heart of God’s plans for Creation. For God to create man in His own image, he first had to create the earth so that man could live and exist.
Compare with Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (created the heaven and the earth).
The Word and God are one of the same; it was God in the beginning who spoke and things came into existence.. The time when Jesus was conceived and when he was born and when he grew in wisdom and stature, was through God speaking the Word and that is when God’s Word became flesh in the birth of His only begotten Son.. I am not confusing Jesus’ existence with the Word that was with God at the very beginning before anything existed.. It could be stretched and I would not argue with the thought that before anything was made, the plan of God was to create man in His own image and in so doing also knew what course of action He would take in testing the first man and woman.. God planned from the very beginning that He would have to provide the means of salvation should Adam and Eve fail.. God knew beforehand that living a sinless life was achievable and it would take His Son to do it.. This did not come without a price..

You have to consider that Jesus could have failed, because he was a man.. The achievement of Jesus vindicates God from those who would say it is impossible.. In addition, if Jesus had been God (which he was not) this would have fudged the achievement of Jesus.. I accept Jesus accomplished that which no other man living has or could ever do; lead a perfect and sinless life.. I give credit to God that He knew what He was doing when he created man and proved that a man could achieve perfection through obedience..

At the origin of time (infinity away), difficult as that is to comprehend and like the so-called Big Bang Theory to explain a singular point of origin, for me God is the singular point of origin.. At some point on a timeline from infinity in the past to infinity in the future God created the universe that we are part of.. God said the Word, the Word was spoken and things came into existence by God’s power.. At some point in God’s time, God had a plan.. God created His Holy Angels to do His Will in Heaven before he created man; that is why God could say to His Angels, 'Let us make man in our image..' God’s Holy Angels do appear as men. In the Bible we read; 'beware lest thou entertain angels unaware. ' At the time Jesus was taken up into Heaven there were Angels standing by having the appearance of men, but distinguished by their white apparel.. God’s Holy Angels appear as men; the difference is that God’s Holy Angels do His Will and therefore I also disagree with the fallacy that there was a rebellion in God’s Heaven and Angels were cast down to earth because they rebelled against God.. This belief can be discussed in another thread.. It is difficult not to get embroiled into different areas of belief while dealing with one topic, but the fallacy of the pre-existence of Jesus is the same fallacy as teaching the Trinity and that Jesus was God.. It is muddying the waters to say there are three godheads in one, when God is very emphatic that He is ONE and there is none beside Him..

Was Jesus made for the world, or was the world made for Jesus? Did Jesus exist before Creation or after Creation? Was Jesus in the mind of God before Creation? The reasoning applied to these questions is the same reasoning that applies to the Sabbath.. Was the Sabbath made for man or was man made for the Sabbath? Did the Sabbath exist before the Creation or after the Creation? The answer to the question of the Sabbath is given in Mark 2: 27

In conclusion, I finish where I began by saying; Jesus is not God.. In no way do I take away the glory , the honour, and the majesty that is God’s; nor do I take away the honour that is due to Jesus for all that he accomplished as a man who has been exalted to the highest place in Heaven where God resides.. You might not agree with my reasoning, but I am comfortable in my endeavour to harmonize God’s Word and not fall into the trap of taking a few verses out of context to fabricate a belief that ignores the many verses that do not support that belief and say the contrary..
Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life is the message from Jesus(John 5:39). May God bless us all in our endeavour to search for truth and for our obedience to His will..

David M.